Current state of the church in America

Agreed. But, if you are a christian, wouldn't you want to look your best to show your love for Christ? It is my belief that Christ teaches us to sort of "clean up our act".

As far as confessing our sins and acknowledging Christ as our salvation, you are again correct. And, might I add, that Christ also said That where at least 2 or 3 were gathered in His Name, there he would be also. To me, that is the earliest and most simple definitions of a church. After all, aren't we going to church to worship Him?

What does dressing up have to do with anything? I dare say that Christ Himself would have to wear a tie to get into most American churches today. And ol' Peter trying to get in, smelling like a big fish...nah, can't see it happening.

Sadly your right, but luckily not all churches are like that. I could care less about ones appearance. Its more important that they are there to hear about Christ and worship Christ than how they are dressed, or look, or whatever.

My pastors son is pastors a church in the Chattanooga area and he was telling us a story when he was up for Christmas.

"A pastor was in his office preparing for a service early one Sunday morning. A couple of the deacons came and informed the pastor he needed to remove someone from the church. The pastor asked why. They said a fella had came in with long hair, piercings, and tattoos, and wasn't dressed to suit. The pastor told them he didn't feel it was right to ask someone to leave because of how they looked, but the deacons said that type was not permitted in this church and if he wanted to keep his job the pastor would have to ask them to leave.

Deciding to go speak to the person in the pew that pastor was stunned at what he found. It was his son who he had not seen or spoken to in over a year.

What happened, I do not know. But sadly, too many are looking at the outward appearance and not at the heart, nor do some try to help those seek the Lord. Its a sad state of affairs that the church is in across the world, but there still are some solid churches around if you seek one. No church is perfect because man attends them. I do think worshipping the Lord is integral in reaching Heaven. I also do not believe in the once in grace always in grace doctorin either.

The problem with the state of church in America today is that they are trying to bring the message that if you dont go to church you will go to hell. Ive pretty much heard that message at several churches.


As long as you accept God, acknowledge him as your saviour, live your live for him...then Im sure he doesnt care if you congregate with others on a Sunday morning. Not saying that going to church is a bad thing, but dont act like you're going to heaven just because you go to church. Thats what I dont like about our society.

Burton, you are right on a number of things. Just going to church will not get you into heaven. Going to church will; however, give you a more firm foundation of your belief, if you are in the spirit of the Lord when you go.

Stripes, if you are saved by the grace of God, then why would he take it back? Once truly saved, then you are saved. We still sin and God knows the affairs of your heart. Being saved by the grace of God only takes one time, for that is enough. It is up to us to consider the enormity of his grace and to abide by it. I do not believe that God would take such a great gift away from us once he has given it to us.

I agree with you burton. I think it is good to go to church, but not necessary to attain heaven.

CD, he can take it back at any time if you disobey. Was the devil not an angel of God at one time yet had to be cast out? Everyone sins that is true, but without repenting and continually repeating said sins, you can backslide lose your salvation IMO. If you are saved, and then become a devil worshipper 10 years later, do you still believe that person will reach heaven if they do not repent of their sins?

Good point stripes, but what I was trying to say is that my belief is that once you are truly saved, you would continually try to shed your old ways. Let's face it, many people claimed to be saved and you hear of nothing else from them. You make an excellent point, but I don't believe you can "lose" your salvation and you believe you can. I look at it this way, once you have been truly washed in the blood of the lamb, nothing at all can wash that off because it is everlasting. People can and do backslide all the time. I don't think that you lose your salvation, though. The Lord does say he chastizes his children for doing wrong and not doing His will. Remember the parable of the prodigal son? He was always his father's son, no matter what. Just like christians are all God's children The holy father never forget we are His children.

Oh, BTW, if one is truly saved, they would never become a devil worshipper.

I was putting that out there as an extreme, but your beliefs are more from the Calvinist perspective, and mine are more Arminian I guess. I feel like you can lose your salvation. The Jews did in a way if you think about it. They lost their way of attaining it at least and that provided Gentiles with the ability.

A lot of the Apostle Paul's teachings are where Calvinist and Arminians differ in this believe. Corinthians offers many texts about this, but I do like this one from Romans 11 21-24:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

"I feel like you can lose your salvation."

Stripes, what would it take for your daughter to cease being your daughter? Nothing can ever change that fact! God is the Father of man generally speaking, and once you are saved He becomes your literal Father. He can no more deny you than you can deny your daughter...because of His promise:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one."
John 10:27-30 (KJV)

Now, if you've been saved, who can take that away from you? No one, not even yourself!
I don't buy into the person who has been "saved" then goes back into a life of sin - they were never saved to begin with. A person who has met Jesus face to face through the Holy Spirit becomes a different person, because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Sure, they can and will sin, but its totally a different affair than returning to a life of sin.
The best example of the backsliding Christian is found in Luke 15. Notice the father's reaction to the return of the prodigal son.

A friend once told me "I'd rather believe the way I do (that one can lose their salvation) and be wrong than to believe the way you do (eternal salvation)and be wrong."
My response to him was "If I believed that I could lose my salvation, then I'd thumb my nose up at every church I passed. Who wants to serve a God who is just waiting for you to mess up?!?!?"
Trust me, I am His, He is mine. I can never change that equation.

" For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. "

See, I feel as though when they say dead, it implies cut off, because why would it say alive again? You are still alive if that is not the case.

I have a family member that was saved. He was a preacher that was given that gift by God and done a great job for many numbers of years. I believe he would tell you right now that he is not going to heaven. He feels as though he failed God because of things that happened in his household a number of years ago, and quit preaching, quit reading, and quit going to church.

I believe you can change the equation because you have your own freewill. Adam and Eve had the freewill to disobey God and listen to Satan. God is the father to everyone, saved or unsaved. We as individuals have the freewill to turn our backs on God, just as any child can turn their backs on their parents and leave them.

God isn't waiting for us to mess. He knows we will mess up, where flesh. Its what we do after we mess up that makes the difference.